'The Legend of Farfur', or 'Why I Proclaim Checkmate Upon the Infidels'
May 7th 2007 13:42
Note: I have updated the article, the original can be found down below. The reason for the edit is because there was some elements of truth to the original article I was responding to on another blog. Some parts of the original article was in fact false due to my rash reaction, I didn't expect there to ever be a rational response to the original video since it seemed to have picked up momentum with hate sites, inevitably CNN, BBC and other major news outlets did provide the fuller picture.
Propaganda is something that has existed with us for many years, propaganda for kids was probably first put into effect during World War 2 via Looney Tunes. Take the following video for example,
That is one of the many propaganda cartoons released throughout the years of animated television, to instil a since of duty and pride amongst kids who may be losing hope in front of a seemingly indestructible enemy.
Farfur, the controversial mouse, is a throwback to classic propaganda for kids, while the more modern alternatives employed by the likes of Hollywood for kids and adults has evolved to something more like ' The Legend of Zorro' rather than relying on cheesy and subtle as a rhino examples which is what has landed Farfur into all this heat.
While in one scene he may be proclaiming Palestine will rule the world, in another scene he's encouraging children to go out and get a good education to take over the world. It is actually something that blurs the line between downright dangerous and simply amusing.
Farfur never is encouraging suicide bombings specifically or anything of that sort, he is encouraging national pride, especially for broken and battered Palestinian kids who have probably all but given up hope in the face of a seemingly indestructible enemy. While he may promote getting up and defending oneself he also encourages getting an education.
I am not trying to defend the show, though it isn't about brainwashing kids to kill people, it's about creating national pride, a feeling of strength in front of an enemy that has been oppressing them for so long.
Despite being blunt and right to the point it is probably no more dangerous for children’s mentality than what they are exposed to on a near daily basis already and at least it gives them hope, something Hammas has been doing really well at for Palestinians.
At the end of the day Farfur is really no more than a perfectly understandable response to the amount of bullying that goes on against the Palestinians against the IDF, while I am very pleased to report the show has been taken off the air it will not solve the fundamental problem that is present in Palestine.
Kids will always stay strong, they'll see that they are oppressed and they will fight back, with or without Farfur, if Israeli politicians are worried about Hammas breeding terrorists then they should take a long hard look at themselves and see the obviousness of the truth. The only reason Hammas is breading terrorists is because they are giving Hammas and the entire nation of Palestine reason to want to revolt and fight back in self defence.
Propaganda is something that has existed with us for many years, propaganda for kids was probably first put into effect during World War 2 via Looney Tunes. Take the following video for example,
That is one of the many propaganda cartoons released throughout the years of animated television, to instil a since of duty and pride amongst kids who may be losing hope in front of a seemingly indestructible enemy.
Farfur, the controversial mouse, is a throwback to classic propaganda for kids, while the more modern alternatives employed by the likes of Hollywood for kids and adults has evolved to something more like ' The Legend of Zorro' rather than relying on cheesy and subtle as a rhino examples which is what has landed Farfur into all this heat.
While in one scene he may be proclaiming Palestine will rule the world, in another scene he's encouraging children to go out and get a good education to take over the world. It is actually something that blurs the line between downright dangerous and simply amusing.
Farfur never is encouraging suicide bombings specifically or anything of that sort, he is encouraging national pride, especially for broken and battered Palestinian kids who have probably all but given up hope in the face of a seemingly indestructible enemy. While he may promote getting up and defending oneself he also encourages getting an education.
Giving Hope To Kids?
I am not trying to defend the show, though it isn't about brainwashing kids to kill people, it's about creating national pride, a feeling of strength in front of an enemy that has been oppressing them for so long.
Despite being blunt and right to the point it is probably no more dangerous for children’s mentality than what they are exposed to on a near daily basis already and at least it gives them hope, something Hammas has been doing really well at for Palestinians.
At the end of the day Farfur is really no more than a perfectly understandable response to the amount of bullying that goes on against the Palestinians against the IDF, while I am very pleased to report the show has been taken off the air it will not solve the fundamental problem that is present in Palestine.
Kids will always stay strong, they'll see that they are oppressed and they will fight back, with or without Farfur, if Israeli politicians are worried about Hammas breeding terrorists then they should take a long hard look at themselves and see the obviousness of the truth. The only reason Hammas is breading terrorists is because they are giving Hammas and the entire nation of Palestine reason to want to revolt and fight back in self defence.
Original Article:
While being sponsored by less than trustworthy characters (namely Hammas) 'Farfur' (the show about the evil terrorist Muslim Mouse) appears to be no more than an average children’s show that has, like lots of other things Islamic, been warped around by hate groups to make it yet another attack against Muslims.
Lets get right into the meat shall we?
Heres a search for 'Farfur Muslim' on Google
Every result is from right wingers, hate groups, you name it, if they don't like Muslims and they have a website, they have Farfur.
Now lets look at CNN
Nothing? This can't be right!
OK, what about the BBC?
Nothing again? This can't be right, oh I know! Corrupt liberalism infiltrating the media!
Ok, how about a conservative news source? Lets try TimesOnline (UK).
Again nothing?
Hmm, perhaps the entire media is corrupted with liberalism...
Or maybe even ultra conservative journalists are not stupid enough to believe the gesture Farfur is making here to imply he's holding an AK-47:
So there you have it folks, some dude got clever with the Photoshop, added the 'subtitle' to the image of Farfur making a pointy motion and said 'yep, Farfur is pretending to be carrying an AK-47'.
Like all good rumors the god damn thing went completely ballistic as it made its rounds and ended up on Orble's very own conservative nutcase blog.
You know whats truly sad? Some people are still going to contest this and make claim that is what Farfur is teaching, the very fact certain people went so far to write about it in depth without even knowing the name of the show beforehand speaks for itself.
While being sponsored by less than trustworthy characters (namely Hammas) 'Farfur' (the show about the evil terrorist Muslim Mouse) appears to be no more than an average children’s show that has, like lots of other things Islamic, been warped around by hate groups to make it yet another attack against Muslims.
Lets get right into the meat shall we?
Heres a search for 'Farfur Muslim' on Google
Every result is from right wingers, hate groups, you name it, if they don't like Muslims and they have a website, they have Farfur.
Now lets look at CNN
Nothing? This can't be right!
OK, what about the BBC?
Nothing again? This can't be right, oh I know! Corrupt liberalism infiltrating the media!
Ok, how about a conservative news source? Lets try TimesOnline (UK).
Again nothing?
Hmm, perhaps the entire media is corrupted with liberalism...
Or maybe even ultra conservative journalists are not stupid enough to believe the gesture Farfur is making here to imply he's holding an AK-47:
So there you have it folks, some dude got clever with the Photoshop, added the 'subtitle' to the image of Farfur making a pointy motion and said 'yep, Farfur is pretending to be carrying an AK-47'.
Like all good rumors the god damn thing went completely ballistic as it made its rounds and ended up on Orble's very own conservative nutcase blog.
You know whats truly sad? Some people are still going to contest this and make claim that is what Farfur is teaching, the very fact certain people went so far to write about it in depth without even knowing the name of the show beforehand speaks for itself.
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Comment by youranter
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Comment by Ahmed
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You're just acting the part of the sore loser right now aren't ya?
You're wrong here, this is no more than a rumor that was blown out of proportion based on a single photoshopped picture.
The only enemy that exists is the enemy that takes away my rights, which is what George Bush has been busily doing the last few years.
Comment by Ahmed
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I wrote in thea rticle while Hammas is sponsering the show there is no propoganda in it, there is no 'blow this up' there is no advocation of violence.
If there was it would be in the mainstream medai, it isn't, what we have up until now is this photoshopped image that has been taken as a joke, then taken seriously, then trumpeted up to the point it is now.
Not a signle mainstream (conservative or otherwise) news outlet has mentioned Farfur, rightfully so, whats said about it is purely false.
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Comment by Ahmed
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OK, someones having illusions of grandiuer.
Lets see, George Bush has legalized torture, admitted to taking tax payers money to build secret CIA prisons, has started a war that eats up more money in a week than the US would spend on education in a year.
Lets go further?
Takes money out of social welfare which has resulted in 18,000 Americans dying a year as a direct result of the lack of health care. all in the name to 'hunt down' an escape artist responsible for killing 3000 people 5 years ago, so in the pursuit to catch a man who killed 3000 the US has by way of passive stupidity let die 90,000 people.
I have no doubts sponsors can manipulate whatever it is being sponsored, however Hammas isn't exactly an evil group like you make it out to be, and desperately so. This TV show they sponsor is testament to the fact they aren't involved in mass propaganda as you claim, you and every other Muslim hate group might I add.
If it were real I'd have expected to have heard about this eons ago, probably from CNN or the BBC, heck, I'd settle for the Times paper.
Nothing.
All this anger is based off a manipulated image that you can see before you.
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Comment by Ahmed
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Nothing will stop these outright lies, this goes right up there with Obama supposedly being a Muslim and raisedin a hardline Islamiic school, and beyond even.
Would be hard to get your hands on the show, and I'd imagine it'd go through the hands of these hate groups before you got it hence it wouldn't really be trust worthy.
On the other hand maybe not, I mean if it's going to have english subtitles then you'll know it's fake.
Comment by Damo
Tears are rolling down my cheeks.
Did anyone mention the 'C' word 'Credibility.'
The image is obviously edited in photoshop and any professional can see the mistakes a mile away.
1-The subtitles are in the wrong position and out side the' text zone'.
2-the text is a different resolution than rest of the picture. Impossible if they were to be sent via television.
In short Busted.
A honorable person would issue an apology at this point and remove the offending material.
However if it a person so blinded with prejudice and bigotry they may choose the keep the egg on their face out of spite.
Comment by Ahmed
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But you're right, all of it adds up.
You know they wouldn't even admit to being wrong, that Farsi is not a type of Arabic. After I showed them wikipedia they claimed it was inaccurate, after which I showed them five different websites showing how Arabic is a different language, no response. Which is more than I expected.
Maybe they'll learn to start calling people from Arabian areas 'Arabs' instead of 'Arabic', doubt it though.
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Atleaset the CNN, BBC ones are a bit more level headed, so there was some element of truth in the original videos.
So I'll be updating this asap.
Comment by Anonymous
If it is manipulated, it is not a manipulated image, it is manipulated VIDEO! Someone's been busy, covering every single frame with subtitles.
Comment by Anonymous
Looks like your self proclaimed "checkmate" was premature.
Really Long Link
Comment by Ahmed
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Interesting they actually took it off air.
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Sorry, your checkmate failed.
Comment by Ahmed
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The original article I read had nothing to prove the facts, no link, no name, nothing. I did some research and the whole thing seemed to be nothing but false information, it was being pushed on only hate sites and the like.
I was wrong, there was an element of truth to it, however it still is nothing like what many of the hate sites are declaring it to be.
Comment by Brenton
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I would like to say too that the blogger in question has a habit of making drastically wild conclusions from facts that have been exaggerated.
I don't agree with the show though, and I'm pretty glad its gone off air.
Comment by Anonymous
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But since the moderator of this Lie Blog is Ahmed himself,
you'll never see this!
Comment by Ahmed
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Yes, I've been taught oh so many lies, I guess thats what happens when you read books and whatnot, should I sit down and listen to some bigot spout out anti-Islamic rhetoric and take that as truth?
Anyway, I hold dear that whats different between me and bigots is that I'm not afraid of the truth, even if the truth isn't nice to hear. I can admit to being wrong and I most certainly will stand up to what I say, I'm better than those who want to deport me (to where I don't know) and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't just stay better than they are.
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Second of all, how can Farfur teach unity when the IDF breaks into their homes on a regular basis, kills their relatives and terrorizes them?
Israel being a speck has nothing to do with anything, Israel has a very advanced army funded by the US, if the US took out the funding it gives Israel that would be that for Israel, it will crumble, fall apart, it runs under a war economy that is funded almost wholly by the US.
Comment by youranter
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Comment by Ahmed, "They were, I would have really expected a show brainwashing kids to make the news the world fucking over."
Sounds to me like you're denying propaganda. Careful you don't trip as you hastily back up.
Comment by Ahmed
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Actually that is propoganda and I hardly deny it, back in the 60's it was roughly the same 'get into science' not because of the science itself but to beat the soviet union in the sciences.
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Comment by Anonymous
Something that intrigued me was Farfurs claim in the Palistines role in ruling the world. Why does every sect, local, expect the to stand alone a top the world alone? Has anyone read enough of the Koran to tell me why there is so much disdain between every Islamofacist sect? I don't get the goal of subjugation and purification of the entire world either.
I guess it's not for me to get.
Comment by Ahmed
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Fact of the matter is these groups are politically motivated, not religously, they twist words up to make things sound appealing to them then they sell it to people, if people buy it then they have political supporters, so on and so forth.
Comment by Anonymous
The views and reactions are so twisted from what the "civil world" sees. We get our undies a twist over this and that. Then write our electorate, vote, and occationally get into lunchroom debates. They get upset and send their barly literate eight year olds children out to kill and die. We deal with the similar stupid junk and have grossly different reactions.
I was just curious where all the twisting came from? Where did the thousands of years of unrest in the middle east come from? I remember this video of an atheist Arab woman that claimed they are "mentally stuck in the dark ages". Is this more speciffically applied to their political mind?
Comment by Ahmed
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However there are people who are backwards minded and are stuck just over that 1400 years ago, before Islam in that they are superstitious and pretty hard on civil liberties, it's more cultural and political for them than it is religous, where religion may agree with them they'll exaggerate to the point it is as if thats what the whole religion revolves around.
Since Islam is the religion if you can convince someone who is a Muslim yet knows very little of Islam that Islam allows you to kill innocent people without any real just cause then they'll proabbly follow along. It's interesting to note that because of this cultural and political twisting going on Muslim converts typically know more about Islam than Muslims who were born into a Muslim family.
Comment by Anonymous
Specificly are you saying certian leaders are mentally homoginizing the weak. Those who have who have solid Muslim roots, values, etc. are intimidated because injected "Islamofacist" holds great streingth in one core peice of Muslim faith/culture? This kinda further weakens the well rounded values of Arab or Muslim people, which brings us to today?
Comment by Ahmed
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It probably isn't that black and white, even during war collateral damage isn't allowed unless it was completely unavoidable. by that I mean that it was purely accidental and not the result of carelessness in the battlefield.
What happens is for instance the IDF goes and kills hundreds of innocent people then claims it was collateral damage that couldn't be avoided, Islamically that is unallowable because the death of those not involvedin combat was the direct result of carelessness. So what happens is you have these Muslims who are outraged by this and decide to fight back by carelessly attacking and killing innocent people (bombings, etc). This isn't allowed Islamically speaking, it is important to not react to the enemy but act in accordance to the religions teachings since this is what seperates Muslims from other people.
But they are angry and they'll claim it isn't realy collateral damage since all the people are enemies of Islam. The definition of 'enemy' they use is extremely broad. For instance it doens't recognize that a Jew could live in Israel but be completely against the Israeli government, it doens't recognize children are not a part of the conflict and probably even says taht they'll grow up to be an enemy.
Basically they create hypothetical scenarios to justify all their actions, in reality they aren't behaving too differently to the IDF that might say 'well theoretically speaking there might be a man in that building who will kill 100 jews if he's left to live' and then desroys a building with lots of innocent civilians in it.
At the end of the day it's all political, judaism and Islam can and have gotten along simultaneously and can, there is no clashing ideologies (quite hte opposite in fact).
Comment by Anonymous
Yeah, I would imagine both Judaism and Islam have similar rules of engagement but those rules are broken for oppurtunistic jabs. "Jabs" a vast understatement.
Right before I hit the send button this hit me. The facists communists did the same thing (that I mentioned in the first paragraph) but instead killed their people through labor camps. I didn't really understand what some folks were talking about when they said "Islamofacism". If that's what's going is Islam in the same danger the enemies of the facists face?
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Comment by Yonasaon
You need to, and I would like to help you find what you need to see it.
So, for the bigger picture, or at least a very small part of it, here are some links everyone needs to have.
TODDLER TERRORISTS-IN-TRAINING
PARADISE CAMPS
"PALESTINIAN" HATE SPEECH DOCUMENTED
___HERE, and
___HERE.
It is important to look at the whole picture, and when you do see a disturbing pattern emerging, you will realize that the mouse is very much a part of that.
Comment by Ahmed
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The above is what you don't want to see.
Comment by Yonasaon
Let's just say that a society that names a border crossing, a soccer tournament, and schools after cold blooded killers is savage and barbaric. There is no other society in the world that so glorifies terror and murder. The religious clerics all call for violence. The politicians all call for violence. they have no economy because all their energies are devoted to causing as much violence as possible. That is truly depraved.
So, yes, I stand by what I say. That is the most important part of the story. If there is another part, it is completely irrelevant in the face of so much brutality.
Comment by Yonasaon
Sorry, Ahmed. They were doing that to try to save, not only their own, but Arab lives. They knew that if they went in, the Arabs would certainly shoot at them, and they would have to shoot back and kill them. The didn't want to do that. They thought if they sent a neighbor in to try to talk them out, it would save both Arab as well as Jewish lives. They assumed that the Arabs were civilized enough not to shoot one of their own. They were wrong. Now that we know they don't even respect the lives of their own people, we don't do that any more.
Now, if it's the real "human shields" story you want, take a look at this.
RE: the movie you posted.
I'm running an ancient Windows 98 that doesn't support that video format, otherwise I would love to watch it so I could pick it apart. But, if you want I can get you some things you won't want to see.
How about that Al Dura fraud, eh?
Or what about how the "palestinians" use ambulances to smuggle bombs for their attacks? And here is a short list of some of the times they have been caught "red handed."
Did you know that, as well as the way they use human shields [that kid the IDF was using wasn't a real "human shield" Ahmed], is a real war crime under international law?
Fake funerals, here, and here to gain sympathy for their war to destroy Israel.
And then there is their fake justice .
It seems that just about everything about them is a fraud. A simple proof that Israel is indeed Jewish land, is that the names of all the cities in Israel are the same Hebrew names they've had for the last 3,000 years, as any ancient history text can confirm.
Anyway, I repeat what I said in my first post. If you look at that mouse in context, it certainly is a part of a larger picture of the terrorist theft of the minds and souls of innocent Arab children.
Comment by youranter
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Comment by Ahmed
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I can't help change the delusion of morons such as yourselves and I really couldn't care less. The only thing thats insulting to me is how you guys constantly think that you're right and everyone else is wrong, it's insulting to intelligent people in general.
Comment by Yonason
No, Ahmed. I am not always right. But I have been studying this very intently for 6 years now, and nearly all my life at some level. If I thought that the "palestinian" society in general wasn't evil I would say so.
And it doesn't help when they deny their own existence, and advocate violence as their defining "national" characteristic.
"Throughout his authorized biography (Alan Hart, Arafat: terrorist or peace maker) Arafat asserts at least a dozen times: "the Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasir Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel".
Arab sociologists of the 1950s declared that there is no separate Palestinian people; and what is commonly called the "Palestinian people" is actually part of the Syrian and Lebanese Arab nation (Phillip Hitti)."
BTW - How do you justify teaching children to be suicide bombers? or glorifying murder of women and children? or how the terrorists among you prey upon the your weak as well as ours?
I have no doubt that some ot the "palestinian" Arabs are good people. But that doesn't matter because they aren't the ones in charge. And if they try to be, they end up dead - not by the hand of Israelis, but by some of their own.
Still, as long as they have problems with "honor killings" and endangering the lives of their children , they will have a tough time convincing me the majority are not ignoble.
And, if you want to blame someone for the plight of the "palestinians", their leaders..
Comment by Ahmed
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I'm sorry but the six years of research you have been doing comes off across more as six years of bringing into site every little nook and cranny of negativity you can throw at those people.
HItler did the same thing, came up with one negative after another about the Jews, continuously over a period of many years to the point he brainwashed enough people to think he was right and jews were inherintly evil.
Comment by Yonason
Should have been . . .
"And, if you want to blame someone for the plight of the "palestinians", blame their leaders.."
sorry
Comment by Anonymous
We even see this sort here but it is relitively weak. Slanging will get ya the blng bling, hotties, what ever ya want. Basically we end up with somewhat cowardly gangsters. Most die and don't get what they want, they followed a lie. Few would argue for their defence of their culture because it's clear they are gangsters.
In the middle eastern situation it's much different. The crime is there, they have committed every sin but they claim to do it under their devout faith. It's actually quite sick it's is at the point that they do the most desgusting things and when there is any retribution they say "Hey, this is our faith!" But just like the gangsters few get anything from it.
Hitlers Jungen, People's Will, PLO... I don't know.
I guess, the first who were trampled were the middle easterners who actually are intellegent and have peaceful ambition for themselves and their families.
There are very few who can benefit from these types of lifestyles.
Comment by youranter
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Well, I guess I'm sorry too that, as fair and just as you claim to be, Ahmed, you won't countenance any negativity at all toward Muslims anywhere. You seem to have a rather selective mind when it comes to being fair and just.
As for Hitler and the boys, the German people are still trying to get over that episode of history, but they sure aren't as venomnous as you are when Islamic or Muslim atrocities occur. Maybe in 60 years, you'll calm down a bit too.
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Comment by Ahmed
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It's like if I judge conservative Christians by their lowest common denominator, you judge Muslims and Islam by Bin Laden and likewise I'll have to judge Christianity and Christians by Hitler who was a devout Christian. It just doesn't feel very nice does it?
That is what annoys me.
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Comment by Ahmed
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Right from his moutH:
Perhaps you should know it isn't the 'moderate' Muslims that are being dragged down, the 'moderate' Muslims are very far away from their religion. I'd say they weren't Muslims but it isn't my place to judge people I don't know. Also, thousands of years ago, I should remind you that Muslims and Jews lived peacefully side by side under Islamic rule 1400 years ago in Medina, they also did live peacefully in Jeruselum. Islam is hardly a religion that breeds such people, it doesn't need to be re-interpreted to get on with the modern times, the problem is it is being re-interpreted during modern times by these nut cases and whats worse is some people want to change Islam as a result reasoning that what these 'fundamentalists' say is what Islam preaches, which it isn't.
If there i s something or someone going against Islam for any number of reasons I'll respond to it, this very blog post is a response to such an occurence.
Comment by youranter
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Perhaps differentiating Muslims as 'fundamentalists' and 'moderates' is wrong. I don't know how else to make the distinction though. The 'fundamentalists', to me anyway, are the terrorists. The 'moderates' are the peaceful law-abing citizens who just want to get on with their lives and want an end to these atrocities as well as the rest of the world. If you have a better way of separating the two, please let me know.
Comment by Ahmed
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Don't relate the 'fundamentalists' to Islam, call them terrorists but don't refer to them at all as Muslim. They have political not religous agendas at heart.
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Comment by yonason
So, if I were to tell you that an ex-chief justice of Saudi Arabia was a Jihadist, would you call him a terrorist as well? And just how did a terrorist get to be chief justice in the Islamic religious kinddom, anyway, if not by being a faithful adherent to the religion?
Let's see what he has to say, shall we? [NOTE, the comments in parens are HIS, not mine]
"Praise be to Allah swt Who has ordained Al-Jihad (the holy fighting in Allah's Cause) :... With the hand (weapons, etc.), ...
. . . you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam . . .
And He (Allah) said: Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims). . (....Mujahidin) .... who fight against the enemies of Allah in order that ... Allah (swt) and His religion Islam) should be superior ...
All the Muslim religious scholars unanimously agree that Jihad is superior to Hajj and 'Umra ... and threatened (all) those who remain behind from Jihad ... with horrible punishment.you will not find any organization past or present, religious or non-religious as regards (Jihad and military) (ordering) the whole nation to march forth and mobilize all of them. into active military service ... as you will find in the Islamic Religion and its teachings." -- By SHEIKH ABDULLAH BIN MUHAMMAD BIN HUMAID
Mark especially well that last paragraph from a mainstream Saudi Islamic authority. NO other nation or religion has ever been as dedicated to militarily forcing it's religion on everyone. Even the Nazis and Fascists gave up when they lost. But, when these ideas are embedded in a religion, they are propagated with all the other teachings and have been resurfacing and causing problems for humanity for 1400 years now.
Sorry, Ahmed. It is the religion. Well, either that or those who are running the religion. But, then, for all practical purposes there is really no difference.
Looks like, "CHECKMATE, ISLAM" to me.
Also, a little more about 'the mouse of death':
Walt Disney's daughter isn't amused.
Comment by Ahmed
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not to take a cheap shot at them but Saudi Arabia has a large (and wealthy) Beduin population who aren't exactly the smartest folk in the world, they don't know mucha bout religion (if anything) so they will follow whatever anyone says.
Thats an interesting question actually, is Jihad superior to Hajj? Hajj is one of the five pillars of Islam, Jihad isn't. Yet Jihad is simply the act of fighting in self defence against someone trying to take away your life or religion. I wouldn't know, I'm nos cholar, I don't know who those scholars you're referring to are either.
However defending oneself is considered of prime importance and the idea of going on Hajj would be considered a form of retreat if your home is in imminent threat. I guess thats their angle anyway.
You're also taking those quotes out of context.
""Praise be to Allah swt Who has ordained Al-Jihad"
Even if he is only referring to Jihad as in war I don't see whats wrong with it, all that means is God allows people to fight in his name to defend themselves against an enemy, however ot add to that he lists below that quote:
1. With the heart (intentions or feelings),
2. With the hand (weapons, etc.),
3. With the tongue (speeches, etc., in the Cause of Allah)
Either one of those 3 (or all 3). Jihad isn't just war, it actually in its simplest definition is struggling for the sake of God.
From the paragraph you take the "you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam" quote starts off with: "So when you meet (in fight... Jihad in Allah's Cause)".
Obviously God says you should kill the enemy if you're fighting them, same way the US military is going to say 'it's ok to kill the bad guys'. I don't see whats different here.
"you will not find any organization past or present, religious or non-religious as regards (Jihad and military) (ordering) the whole nation to march forth and mobilize all of them. into active military service ... as you will find in the Islamic Religion and its teachings"
Ok, so Islam emphasizes that you have to defend your beliefs if someone is trying ot take them away from you, so what of it?
Like I said, it's all political nut bags hijacking the religion, twisting words to get support from the weaker minded. In effect this has been happening for thousands of years, almost every religous group in the world experiences the same thing Islam does, from cults to warlords.
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Don't you know our countries in a drought?
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Comment by Ahmed
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But if were talking political parties, well you can see them all, I mean we had the Taliban and the Baath Party, both of which oppressed their people under the concept of Islam. The Saudi Royal family is another, as is the Iranian government.
In effect the whole Middle East is ruled by oppresive governments who use religion as justification, none actually follow religion, they're based.
The only actual political entity thats probably against Jihad through and through would be the Saudi Royal Family, only because it works in their favor that way. It doesn't make them any better, I'd say they're worse than the Taliban with their human rights violations.
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Comment by Ahmed
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In terms of custom and culture they have minor similarities, they dress the same for instance but they have major differences in terms of worship. Shi'ites worship Ali and some other people who they regard as holy, in Islam only God can be worshiped otherwise you're voiding your belief.
It's only natural that people begin relating 'terrorist' with 'muslim', in the end so long as Muslims aren't treated as terrorists there isn't really that big of a deal. Thats where I have the biggest problem. In a free society everyone should be free to do as they wish provided they don't break laws that cover peoples rights (generally speaking) and that their beliefs won't interfere with the peace. This goes pretty much with Islam, especially early on when Muslims were oppressed in Mecca, they found refuge in a Christian kingdom.
Comment by yonason
So, that means you are Sunni?
Comment by yonason
If it were only meant defensively, it would be a little (but only a little) less of a problem. However, when your concept of "defending your beliefs" means FORCING them on others, then that means "your enemy" is EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE AS ISLAM DOES.
That, Ahmed, is the problem, and that is why I emphasized only the violent component, because it is the primary one.
It's a point of logic.
FIGHT THE ENEMY IF ATTACKED, which defines the enemy as an aggressor, is not the same as
FIGHT THE ENEMY, which defines enemy as everyone else, regardless of how aggressive or peaceful they are.
You, and all the appologists for the violence of Islam, pretend that you are only defending your faith from those who would take it from you. But that is only to conceal the fact that it is Islam which is the aggressor who wants to take everyone else's faith away from them.
True, not all Muslims are violent, nor are all sects, but then the peaceful ones aren't denouncing AND RESISTING the violent (the most important sign theyare opposed to the violence ), and until we see that resistance we won't be able to tell you apart.
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You'd be surprised how much money a lot of Muslims give to charities, they just don't like to have their names exposed because religously it's better that way.
Also worth noting is the fact most muslim immigrants have family in areas run by oppresive regimes and most of their money goes to trying to support their families.
Theres a hadeeth that says if a person is not a Muslim you should not force them to convert through violence or intimdation. No matter who they are you should leave them be and you should only tell them about Islam if they ask you for it.
Islam is two fold, when theres peace (between Muslims and non-Muslims) anyone who tries to break the peace in any way may in fact face the death penalty. However if there is a danger against your personal well being you are allowed to react as violently as possible to regain your safety.
The Quran reflects this and the passages that speak of fighting is very aggresively because that is what is expected of you, to fight aggresively to defend your religion.
However all reason for attack exists below peace, if peace is achievable then war should be avoided, it isn't a luxury someone can enjoy just because they are more powerful than an enemy or have some sort of personal vendetta they are trying to fill.
Historically Muslims have always gottena long well with people of different faiths, the only problems started relatively recently mostly fueled by political greed.
Which is why the whole notion that I want to take away everyones beliefs is just ridiculous.
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I really don't thnik that trying to suggest Muslims are uncharitable as they aren't loudly so, is fair.
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Comment by yonason
That's a meaningless statement.
What you are really [almost] saying there is "if there were peace there would be peace." I.e., you are ducking the issue by hiding behind a tautological non-sequitur. [actually the way you said it makes even less sense, but I don't want to go there, yet]
You need to deal with the issue head on.
There isn't peace, and in order for there to be peace the agressor must stop his agression. But who is the agressor?
95% of the violence on the planet today is perpetrated by Muslims against people who would otherwise leave them alone. That is proof they are the ones who are not "giving peace a chance."
The obligation to cease hostilities rests solely upon the Muslims around the World who are propagating it. Those who defend themselves against it are NOT the cause, and are not to blame.
Why Islamic "charities" got injected here, I'm not sure, but you need to stop talking theoretically [not just about those but about everything] and start telling us what you actually do other than organize "charities" as fronts for funding terror or for drawing the poor under the influence of terrorists.
They even stoop to robbing what the rest of the world sends to help the poor.
Sorry, Ahmed, Militant Islam is the major problem in the world today. And whether there actually is a "peaceful" Islam is becoming ever more doubful.
Comment by yonason
You never answered what sect of Islam you belong to.
Is it Sunni?
And if not, what sect is it that you consider "truly" Islamic?
_____________________________ _____________
Also, . . .
. . . your answer to 'youranter' was totally theoretical. But it doesn't matter what the theory is if the practice doesn't conform to it, and a quick look at history shows it doesn't.
Afghanistan used to be Hindu, but now it's Muslim. How did that happen? (HINT: the "Hindu Kush" mountains of Afghanistan mean "Hindu Slaughter").
Islam today is massacring and enslaving Blacks in Sudan as I write this.
I don't want you to show me where it says in some book what a Muslim "should do," unless he actually does it. Theory is meaningless unless it is connected with reality. I'm not interrested in fantasy, but in truth.
TODAY, as well as in the past, non-Muslims are being forcebly converted, or enslaved, or killed, and THAT, very sadly, is the reality.
Comment by yonason
Islam, charity, terror connection
It will be most enlightening.
Comment by Ahmed
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However I hope you find happiness and content in the fact I'll take your sources as seriously as I will take Ahmadenijad blog, which is to say I don't really care. I mean if I visist Ahmadenijad's blog he'll be all 'I hate the west!' if I go to yours it will be all 'I hate Islam!' so on and so forth. I don't hate the west and I'm not particularly fond of Ahmadenijad.
Thers about a million things wrong with what your saying and I can bring up the relevant Islamic facts to prove to you, especially the 'massacring and enslaving blacks' comment, now thats just hilarious. Ok, just as a sample, I'll refute that comment, that Islam is actaully racsist against blacks.
Muhammed after gaining political power declared that all people are equal and freed black slaves, abyssinian slaves in specific who were before him regarded as the lowest class of people.
Before he even had political power he bought the freedom of one slave who was being tortured by his master, yes he was black.
Right now the mosque I go to is pretty colourful, since Islam is a religion and not a race and Australia is quite the multicultural country you could probably find a person from every part of the world who frequents that Mosque.
Having said taht the last Mosque I used to go to had more 'blacks' than non-black people. If you are actually implying Islam is rascist then all I can do is laugh at your lack of site.
As for your 'sect' comment, well you're a little off here.
Theres only one 'sect' in Islam if you're going to be saying 'one sect is Sunni and the other is shia' since shia is not Islam, it is a mix of Christianity and paganism mostly and they just happen to wear the same clothes Arabs do (since they are mostly Arab).
Now, under the 'sunni' group theres quite a few 'sects'. The problem is all the sects in one way or another skew facts and break them up. Muhammed said that the best Muslims will be the ones who follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
If we are to judge 'sunnah' purely on meaning then there can only be one group that can call itself sunni because they follow the quran and hadeeth. However if we judge it in political terms then were not only looking at 'sunni' Muslims, were looking at the various sub categories, a lot of which have skewed interpretations of Islam because they often avoid Hadeeths when interpreting the Quran.
Obviously if someone is goingt o interpret the Quran without looking at the Hadeeth to do so will have as broken an understanding of Islam as you do. In fact thats probably the crucial element most Muslims miss which is why they can fall into the illusion that political groups are in the right, because these political groups will interpret the Quran as freely as they want and push that as the 'definitive' interpretation of the Quran.
Now if you'll excuse me I'll go back to wipping my black slave
Comment by Anonymous
Just because the sites point out the evil inherrent in at least some forms of Islam doesn't mean they are "hate" sites. If someone publishes statistics on criminal activity in a comunity, it will only the criminals who say that's hateful. The truth is the truth, whether you like it or not.
And, frankly, it doesn't seem to matter which "sect" one belongs to . . .
"Hamas is a Sunni Islamic organization"
"TEL AVIV – Hezbollah indoctrinates with radical Shia Islam beliefs"
"Sunni Muslims Standing in Unity with Shiite Hezbollah"
And, one can easily see from the following google searches that there is plenty of information that confirms the existance and extent ot those violent fascist strains running through both Sunni and Shiia sects.
Hamas Nazi
. . . and . . .
Hezbollah Nazi
No other religion has so much violence. And it's probably safe to say that all other religions combined don't produce a fraction of the violence of Islam today.
And, if only some Islam is "true" and the rest false, then it is up to those "true" Muslims to prove to the world their peaceful intentions through their opposition of the violence of the others who kill in the name of Islam. If they don't, then there is no reason for us to believe they are there, and certainly not to act like it.
Comment by yonason
"Hilarious?"
The Blacks of Sudan aren't laughing, Ahmed.
"The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men." -- Winston Churchill
"Islam institutionalized slavery. Muhammad began to take slaves after he moved to Medina, and had power." -- Islam Review (very thorough treatment)
"Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam, according to the head of an aid group who recently returned from the African nation."
And you think that is funny?
The Africans aren't laughing, Ahmed
History testifies against your claim that Mohammed freed slaves. But, even if he did, the practice was never stopped and continues to this day.
It's even been uncovered in the United States.
"Islamic Fundamentalism and the Sex Slave Trade in Iran"
This is not "hillarious." It is not a joke.
Do you still think it is funny, Ahmed?
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Or did she leave you for a Muslim?
OR... did she leave you to become a Muslim?
Tough break man.
Comment by Ahmed
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So I'm sorry man, but the day I start caring about what a website dedicated to spreading hate about any gorup of people is saying I'll have to start caring about all of them and I obviously can't do that
Just think about it dude, I'm here saying Islam is an inherintly peaceful religion, that 1.3 bilion people on this earth are Muslims and a small percentage might be a little cuckoo, probably not much more than the equivalent percentage of Christians or Jews. I'm telling you I'm peaceful, you're telling me I'm not, you'renot in this because you want to make the world a better place, you just have something against Islam, no more, no less.
Comment by yonason
"A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.
"Slavery is a part of Islam," says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA
In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."
His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States."
"Currently Arab-Berbers’ in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, continue to carry out the centuries-old practice of enslaving Black Africans."
"Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery- Kingdom of Saudi Arabia"
"Camel Jockey" = child slave
Saudis sued over their role in the modern "camal-jockey" slave trade.
And when confronted with the truth they get really nasty.
You may say that the Muslims who do this are wrong, but I don't see any promanent Imams loudly condemning it, or trying to put a stop to it. And, given the sheer magnitude of the problem, I don't expect any will.
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I know you won't, though, and honestly I can't be bothered explaining it to you.
If you need me I'll be in the back wipping mah black slaves to get them to move on with the harvest
Comment by yonason
Your calling my references "hate sites" is ridiculous. Just because the truth they tell is something you don't want people to know, doesn't mean they are "hate sites." They are not.
You wouldn't say an anti-nazi website is a "hate site," would you? I hope not. Only a Nazi would do that. But what we are dealing with are Islamists who are just like Nazis, as I shown in other posts and will again here. That claim isn't just pulled out of thin air. It is based on what they say and do.
I repeat what I said above. Warning people of danger isn't "hate" it's prudence.
Now, if it's hate you want, listen to any of the "palestinian" imams in their mosques. Led by Akrama Sabri, grandson of the notorious Nazi-loving hate-filled Haj Amin Al Husseini, who organized Muslim Nazi troops for Hitler and preached Nazi-style hatred of Jews that has only gotten worse over time.
That's a lot of material from legitimate websites. I don't just believe them because what they say is negative. I believe it because I have found these sites trustworthy and/or I can verify their claims independently with other trustworthy websites. Even the very words and actions of the Islamists themselves confirm the claims.
I suggest your readers examine those websites I reference, and check the information for themselves. They will find out who is telling the truth.
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Comment by yonason
Of course you can't be bothered, because you have nothing to refute me. If you had it, you would certainly have used it to show, for example, why Hamas and Hezballah goose-stepping and giving the Nazi salute while shouting "death to the Jews" and "death to America" is somehow not a problem. But you can't, so you pretend I'm making it up, even though there is plenty of evidence on the net that shows the problem is real.
Oh yes, and speaking of Nazis, check out . . .
this, and this and this and this and this and this and this and this (which talks about slaves and Nazis) . . . .
There is so much material, and it's all historically accurate and can be verified by anyone who wishes to do so.
Finally, you make a flippant remark about "wipping" your slaves as a feeble attempt to mock what I have to say. And you do that because you have nothing with which to rebut what I say, so that mocking it is your only hope of appearing credible, as long as no one checks my references.
bye for now
Comment by yonason
The proof is in whether what one says can be shown to be true independently of the one saying it. You haven't done that. I have.
good night
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Well this has sure been enlightening, I've always known there are people who think just like Shelley, I've just never quite believed it until now.
You see yonanson, I don't care about your opinions or thoughts. I always like to think from the other persons perspective, with you, it's kind of hard because you have such a 'complete' view of the world. Now complete isn't necessarily a good thing, since this world is so complex I never trust someone who has complete views, since complete views bring about strong opinons devoid of all manner of rationality.
To 'debate' with you would be akin to shoving a cactus up ones ass, frustrating and pointless not to mention non-sensical. Which is why I haven't bothered replying to your points (so-called) in a manner you would like me to.
In closing I would just like to say that I have never in my life met a person who thinks Islam advocats the enslavement of black people. I honest to god thought I heard them all but you sure out did every other hater (runs the full gamut from KKK to you) I've ever known.
Comment by Anonymous
THE UN? (I thought they only hate the US and Israel)
---on Mauritania's virtually non-existant human-rights (and, yes, slavery)
Wikipedia?
"Human rights in Saudi Arabia are generally considered to be minimal to non-existent"
Amnesty International? (Like the UN, I thought they only hate the US and Israel)
--- ".Despite the legal abolition of slavery in Mauritania in 1981 there is no evidence to suggest that practical steps have been taken to ensure its abolition in practice." OOOPS!
The US Govt? and CNN?
" "Human trafficking is nothing less than a modern form of slavery," said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in a news conference on the report."
If Islam is such a wonderful religion, why is it that ALL of the states it dominates are so oppressive and backward ? Is BBC biased against you as well?
You are delusional.
Those links show how silly your objection to my references is. And your immature and obscene imagery are of the same type that the hate sites use, so that doesn't add to your credibility.
No one is suggesting that anyone hate Muslims. But many of us have come to realize that in order for there to be peace in the world, the decent Muslims (the vast majority) need to rid themselves of their slavery to an idiology that trains them against their nature to be hateful, deceitful and violent as opposed to loving, honest and peaceful.
I know you won't like this link, either. But it has a lot of references that show who the haters really are.
And, if it's hate you want, just look at what "palestinians" are saying (or the Wahhabis, for that matter) and you will have all you want.
It is you who is the hater, and the defender of those who hate, as is obvious from your disinformation on the Hamas use of the Micky Mouse rip-off (it was STOLEN from Disney) to teach hate of Jews and Americans.
And from that hate, they commit this evil!!!
There is a G-d, Ahmed, and He hates deceit, theft and murder and those who praise it will be held accountable. You may be able to fool some of your readers, but you cannot fool Him.
Good bye, Ahmed
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It's funny how he's desperately trying to bring up the BBC and other such news sources and apply it to Muslims, heck, if he read one of the articles he's linking to...
You know the sad thing is I could fight fire with fire, bring up x number of examples of how wonderful the west is, and probably more efficienently (given the western media exists in the west
I'm not like that and if I were to do this then I would end up giving that impression, and rightly so. Like the saying goes 'never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience'. If I were to start debating about which society is good or bad then I'm no better than yonanson. The fact of the matter is the internet is not at all short of hate sties, theres are jewish hate sites, atheist hate sites, you name it and theres severel different hate sites to go along with it.
Every single one of these sites will have elements of truth in it but will use these truths to push further a completely inane agenda. So if I start putting up links continuously 'jews are evil this!' 'buddhists are nuts that!' I'm not going to accomplish anything whatsoever but instead feed my most primitive desires for satisfaction.
Obviously I won't fight fire with fire, though I can't reason either. How can I reason with someone who hates Muslims and Islam just because it's Muslims and Islam? THats why I compared yonanson to the KKK member, you can't reason with them, they're as convinced blacks and jew are evil and that blacks in particular are part of a global communist conspiracy as yonanson is convinced Muslims are just evil becuase they are Muslims.
He's as convinced I want to enslave him as a KKK member is convinced black people are part of a communist agenda.
Interesting that he's an orthodox Jew... how do I know?
Some orthodox Jews believe it is wrong to write the word 'god' in any language (I can't remember the reason why exactly). I'd expect more from him, given Jews were persecuted by Hitler on the exact same terms as he's trying to persecute Muslims right now - by taking misrepresented facts and spinning them to fulfil his own agenda.
'OMG Muslims are forcing non-Muslims to convert or otherwise killing them so they can take over the world!' is rpetty much what he's saying, Hitler was saying something not too dissimlar, something along the lines of 'Jews are gaining powerful positions in Germany and some of them are part of the evil communist regime in the soviet union, clearly they can't be trusted'.
*sigh* I've met your equal and opposite, yonanson, Islam isn't short of delusional nutcases either
Comment by Brenton
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Why can't we all just accept that there are stupid people in all sects of society absing ideologies for political gain without actually having to point ot one specific religion/ideology and say OK THAT'S THE BAD ONE.
Yonason - yes, some Muslims act like dicks. So do some Christains and Jews. Venezualia isn't looking great atm, and I don't think they're Muslim. Is Mugabwe a Muslim? Religion is never about hate. It's just the justification some use for it.
For goodness sake - you are an indulgent arrogant dick - surely some part of you has worked out you're not going to convince our local Muslim her's evil and you'rte good.
And youranter - if you really don't hate Muslims as much as your poem suggests, stop gibving me little quotes that show gross discrimination.
Comment by Anonymous
" .The reason for the edit is because there was some elements of truth to the original article I was responding to on another blog"
- wrongly worded all around. also, if "edit" is singular, then you should've used "were", not "was".
"Some parts of the original article was in fact false due to my rash reaction, I didn't expect there to ever be a rational response to the original video since it seemed to have picked up momentum with hate sites, inevitably CNN, BBC and other major news outlets did provide the fuller picture."
- not only is this a terribly structured run-on sentence, you also make the same mistake. "some parts of the original article was in fact". use "were. also, use more periods, not commas.
"instil a since of duty "
- it's sense, not since, plus same mistakes as first go around.
"and adults has evolved "
-alternative "have" evolved, not has.
whatever, this is taking me too long because you're such a terrible writer. My advice, take an english or journalism class before you spread your vile thoughts like demon seeds upon the supple soil that is our free press.
Comment by Ahmed
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I'm sorry but the reason I blog is because I don't want to spend hours of my time at university to get a degree in journalism.
If I wrote for the NYT I'd be wondering just what the NYTs standards for hiring people are, though also having access to a top tier editor would help iron out the flaws in my writing, maybe I should
If you could say something like 'you have really poor ethics and are biased and should verify your facts' or anything to that effect and then say I should take a course in journalism or at least understand the basic principles of fair and balanced reporting I would understand your position. Not agree with it mind you, understand it, big difference.
Also, what does my lack of ability in the english language have to do wtih my 'vile' opinions? I think calling someone on their vile grammar and claiming their opinions are vile as a result is kind of... well odd.
Comment by Anonymous
So, I read this long debate on truth and the whole picture - I was curious and went to search Farfur in youtube.
I found this: Really Long Link
Is this real? Was this on Palestinian TV? and last, is the translation accurate?
If so (I don't speak Arabic), then I think it will be easier to debate this - based on the true facts, of course.
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It WAS (maybe is) on Palistinian TV.
It MAY or MAY NOT be an accurate translation.
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How many people have based entire arguments for war against Iran on that? Translations are odd ball.
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I'm not defending the enemy, personally I think anyone who has a clear black and white view of who the 'enemy' is, is more of an enemy than the aforementioned enemy
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When he says 'every country has a right to nuclear power' it gets 'accidently mistranslated' to 'every countyr has a right to nuclear missiles'. So I'm wondering just in what capacity and in what context he said he supported Hamas or Hezbollah.
Of course only Israel has nuclear strike capability and a clear intent to be the USA's right arm in taking political control of the middle east.
Comment by Anonymous
Hamas becomes Iran's right hand in the unoccupied Gaza strip.
And if the west bank counts as "the middle east", then your last paragraph is correct.
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But to their credit they did invent the Uzi, one of the most popular street guns in the world. Not much good for war, but gangsters love it. Wonder why
Perhaps you miss the point about about why the US funds Israel, not for teh west bank, not for jewish right, for controlling the middle east. It's just that the people up there are too stubborn and for some reason nuclear weapons don't phase them. Perhaps if Israel did use some of 'em, like against Iran for instance, the damna rabs would get back in line. Not that it would do much good to the Israeli cause as it would destroy itself politically and economically.
Comment by Anonymous
Not exactly. The US funding is less than fifth of the israeli security-budget, and it's not much larger than the aid Egypt gets from the US for example.
It doesn't make a lot of sense considering Israel faces much more threats than Egypt(Iran, Iraq until lately, Syria, guerillas in Lebanon and PA, and others that may decide to stop being friendly).
Comment by Anonymous
I wander how Tel-Aviv became now a part of the naive "national pride" this show was promoting.
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In that case the rest is funded by gangsters who buy their Uzi's, because as it stands Israels only significant export is that.
National pride is not a naive thing, it can be misplaced but it never is naive, if you think that national pride is naive on behalf of any nation then you have a personal bias against that nation and for whatever reason it may be I will take your opinion as biased and never will take it as anything but biased. It is my belief that people are inherintly good and that the few that are bad are the ones that spread their loath to others, who try to make it look like people hate people for any reason that fits the bill of the day.
Comment by Anonymous
Really Long Link
look for "20%"
Israel has an economy, you know - agriculture, science, some resources(salt from the dead sea), and even tourism(mainly due to having too many holy places).
It's not like with the neighbours just sitting on oil.
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Comment by Anonymous
I don't know what do you mean.
No "ancient text" (bible, talmud, etc) has been significantly changed for over 1000 years. And you can't make assumptions without proofs on why it has changed prior to that(not that it matters, as there were virtually no arabs at "Palestine" back then).
The coutry of Israel is based first and foremost on UN declarations and international laws. The "right of return" on the other hand, doesn't always have that legitimacy(especially the Hamas "expanded" version of this right).
On the other hand, without the Quran, Israel today would probably still be inhabited just by christians and jews, and without the new testament, who knows...
Comment by Ahmed
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There were more jews in Jeruselem before Israel was ever created, no suicide bombings then, why? People were not kicked out of their house and livelyhood to give a 'right of return' to people who had never lived in those lands prior.
Jews have a rightt o live in that part of the world, however they don't have the right to take away other peoples lands, which is what they did, by creating the nation of Israel, displacing people from their homes, they had no right to do that.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Ahmed
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It isn't about the houses, it's about politics, houses can be bought anywhere, like you said, so why do other peoples houses need to be taken away from them?
Look, I'm not giving a solution, I'm speaking of the wrongs that happened in the past that continue to happen today, peoples homes were taken away to make room for other people, thats wrong. They weren't compensated, they weren't given anywhere else to live, it was pure wrong.
So what happens now? I'm not disucssing that, thats another matter entirely.
Comment by Anonymous
There was another part in this equation. The fleeing of jews from arab countries(leaving their houses behind, usually with no compensation). Their property, that was used to fund the first war with Israel, could have been given instead to all of the palestinian refugees.
Comment by Ahmed
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Displacing a person from his home is not justifiable with the reasons you're giving. 'Well because this happened to them, then they have a right to this' does not hold up, because it isn't their land they are taking, they hold no entitlement to it, maybe their ancestors did live there, but their ancestors are dead and they haven't been living there in centuries.
Comment by Anonymous
I didn't use it as an excuse to take someone else's property(which right now happens more in the opposite direction, and like you said - what happened in the past to someone's ancestors doesn't apply anymore), I'm just trying to show you that this horrible "Naqba" is just a drop in this world's ocean.
Comment by Ahmed
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Most Jews and Muslims would agree they just want peace, though it isn't easy when you have IDF breaking into peoples homse and killing them or when you have suicide bombers blowing themselvse up in busses.
there is no 'good guy bad guy' thing going on here, at least not from the political side of t hings, there is no 'good government vs bad evil government', it's bad governments vs. good people and in the end the Jews aren't gaining security from returning to their homeland, the Palestinians are not able to live peacefully in their own homes, and all for what? Politics, very few people, with too much money, who want more money and power.
Comment by Anonymous
The jews had numerous "Naqbas" in their history, and they never fought back(except in their homeland), even when they had a longer history in these places than the ones who expelled them(including in arabic countries).
Everyone want peace, that is right, but there are also great concerns in the Israeli side that stop them from embracing the "right of return", and these don't have much to do with local politics -
Imagine that over 80 years ago the British, for whatever reason(the war with the Ottomans maybe), had sent to exile a million muslims, and now, when there's no more "empire" people there start to think the outcasted muslims should be allowed to come back, have their property back or compensations, and gain citizenship. Only what? over the course of these 4 generations, their number had increased 60-fold. If they let them back now, most chances Britain will become(through democratic elections) an Islamic state, and given the inspiration that the most "western" Islamic state being Turkey(the one that still denies the Armenian holocaust), what do you think the British public would decide?
Comment by Ahmed
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Right to return might have nothing to do with politics, however it has been used to further political agendas. Thats basically how things work, some cause, good or bad, is used to further a greedy agenda in the name of good.
I'm not here to suggest solutions to the wrongs, like I said, thats another debate entirely. However the wrong was as simple as this: People were kicked out of their own homes to make room for another entirely seperate people who had never themselves lived on that land before.
Thats the fundamental problem here. If there were no politics involved the jews could have lived in Palestine, they could have bought out enough land legally and peacefully and create their own nation and tehre would never have been any violence in the process. HOwever the powers that be didn't like the idea of no-violence, they didn't want the jews and muslims to get along, because if they did then the main reason why jews were being sent over their (from their view) would be lost, that reason being a passive way of control over that region.
Comment by Anonymous
I think what you said about the "passive control" is true, but like I said earlier, even the British want this kind of control, sovereignity.
Though, the arab leaders' share of violence had been greater, and this led the actions taken by Israel seem rather defensive, at least in the short term.
Comment by Ahmed
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The arab leaders, israeli leaders, all the god damn leaders do is cause problems between people because they don't have the interests of the people at heart, they tend to always be driven by some sort of alterior agenda.
It isn't like Jews and Muslims can't live together in the same land, they have done so before, since Islam started in fact, with hardly any significant problems. The whole concept of Muslims and Jews not being compatible (to such an extent) is relatively young, started when people decided to use religion to get what they wanted.
Comment by Anonymous
"A land without people for a people without land"
ignoring the fact that the Palestinians themselves, well over half a million at the turn of the century, lived in Palestine, that it was their home. The great Zionist humanist, Ahad Ha'am warned against the violation of the rights of the Palestinian people, and his words are well known in the literature of Palestine.
"... Ahad Ha'am warned that the settlers must under no circumstances arouse the wrath of the natives ... 'Yet what do our brethren do in Palestine? Just the very opposite! Serfs they were in the lands of the Diaspora and suddenly they find themselves in unrestricted freedom and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination ...'
"... The same lack of understanding he found in the boycott of Arab labour proclaimed by Jewish labour ... 'Apart from the political danger, I can't put up with the idea that our brethren are morally capable of behaving in such a way to humans of another people, and unwittingly the thought comes to my mind: if it is so now, what will be our relation to the others if in truth we shall achieve at the end of times power in Eretz Yisrael? And if this be the "Messiah": I do not wish to see his coming.'
"Ahad Ha'am returned to the Arab problem ... in February 1914 ... '[the Zionists] wax angry towards those who remind them that there is still another people in Eretz Yisrael that has been living there and does not intend at all to leave its place. In a future when this illusion will have been torn from their hearts and they will look with open eyes upon the reality as it is, they will certainly understand how important this question is and how great our duty to work for its solution'." 15/
But Ahad Ha'am's plea went unheeded as political zionism set about to realize its goal of a Jewish State.
Check the articles at this site:
Really Long Link
Comment by Anonymous
Really Long Link
Another good site is "Jews for Justice in Palestine."
http://www.jfjfp.org/
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Ahmed
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I understand how difficult it must be for you to comprehend that some people have no problem with admitting they are wrong
Don't make a fool out of yourself next time
Comment by Anonymous
Your thread must have inspired another one on Islamicity.com.
Topic: This is why Palestine will not succeed
title Topic: This is why Palestine will not succeed
Go and lend some insights before they start a fitna over there!
(Keep up the great honest work)
Comment by Your Brother
It takes a big man to openly admit when they've made a mistake and even not get (too) upset when others attack you for it. We all make mistakes. So-called Christians have murdered; so-called Jews have murdered; so-called Muslims have murdered. I think we can all agree that religion, in and of itself, does not kill, it is those that profess to belong to it.
The thing about religion is that it invokes tremendous passion in people. Their loyalty to their God (by whatever name they may call him) is exhibited by their behavior and actions. They will follow whatever path they truly belief is the right path. I'm not sure if Bin Laden killed 5000 Americans because he thought he was following God's command or if he was killing out of hatred (murder). I'm not sure if King Richard of England killed countless Muslims during the crusades because he thought he was cleansing the Holy Land, or if it was hatred being poured out. But this I do know... in today's day and age, murder is being accepted by quite a few as an appropriate course of action.
I don't know you and you don't know me. We probably look quite different from one another. But I bet we have the same father far enough back in history. I'm a big geneology fanatic and I'm able to trace my line back to Abraham (Abram). If you're Arab, so can you. It's very interesting that whenever he was faced with a possibly violent situation, he always took the road of peace. I think it's time we should all follow his example and see where this constant killing is leading us.
There is an enemy we are all facing right now. He doesn't have a body, but he does have a name. Here in the West, he's known as Satan... the devil that convinces men to lie, kill, cheat, be immoral, and everything else that causes us to become ungodly. That is our real enemy. And he sits and laughs at us as we fight and kill each other; we never even stop to realize the REAL battle between him and us. We need to be focused on fighting off sin and temptation rather than fighting ourselves (weak men who follow him).
Here in the USA, the media is filled with filth and immorality; that does not mean that is how all Americans think and act. Some do, yes. And some do not. This evil can be found everywhere throughout the world, yes, everywhere. I don't expect too many to read this. But if you do, Ahmed, please take these few words to heart. I do not hate men... just their sinful actions. We should focus on fighting evil, not each other.
Ahmed, I bid you good day. Salam!