When are we really born into this world?
September 11th 2006 04:12
This is a rather interesting topic. It’s also a very important question because it has a hand in modern science in a big way. The issues of abortion and stem cells are at the forefront of the matter and go right to the heart of the basic fundamental of right and wrong in our world.
Recently we have been able to see actual developing embryo's inside the womb in full colour and clarity and it’s nothing short of Amazing. They look like aliens of some sort as they dangle inside the womb all curled up. What I found amazing was that these developing fetuses actually spend sometime conscience within the womb! As in awake, literally, they breathe in the liquid into their lungs, in and out which helps their lungs develop and improves their breathing techniques.
True they spend 95% of their times at this stage asleep, one might assume that at this stage these fetuses are self conscious. But let’s get the idea of being self conscious into perspective. They first and foremost have never been exposed to the ideas of thought coming into consciousness like one would from sleep but assumedly far more slowly, little by little realizing themselves even if very primitively. I suppose one could say the first time these growing fetuses probably only real major jump in self awareness is when they are born. After birth I’d assume the slowly become more and more self aware through growing up.
The key issue here is when does the embryo/fetus cease to be part of the woman's body in which it is growing? Basically when can we say that now the fetus/embryo is a person in his/her own right? Or is the fetus/embryo always going to be part of the woman's body, even after birth. That would make sense genetically too. But that opens up another question, what part does the father play? The fetus/embryo has part of the genetic makeup of the father as well as the mother from before birth. Part of the fetus/embryo belongs to the father while in the mother’s womb even though it is not developing within the father. This should mean that the father has a say about what is to become of the fetus/embryo, granted he doesn’t have nearly as much right as the mother given it is developing inside her, he still has a say. It’s as much his son/daughter as it is the mothers.
Looking at the development of the human fetus and at what point it turns into an embryo we can perhaps develop an understanding of how to define a human through both scientific and ethical ways.
A brief outline of the development within the fetus, taken from Wikipedia:
“Week 1-4 After conception, the embryo will begin to "search" for a place to attach to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium and implants itself there, the connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord.
Week 5-6 Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. The brain begins to develop, showing brain wave activity at about the 6th week. The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Stubs begin to be visible where arms and legs will grow later. All of the main organs begin to grow. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass.
Week 7-8 The embryo's blood type becomes apparent. Embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Most organs have developed or have begun developing. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.”
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo#Growth_of_the_Human_Embryo
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Perhaps the next major changes in these embryos that are relevant to this discussion occur is when they start gaining consciousness within the womb. They start breathing in the liquid they are immersed in and start moving of their own free will. There are cases when a habit the embryo develops within the womb (such as sucking on the thumbs) carries on to when they are born. This is very strong evidence to support that at this point these beings are conscious and self aware even if primitively.
At this point I believe it is most definitely wrong to commit abortion no more than to give birth to the child then kill it. I suppose the question is where do we draw the line? In my opinion its after 40 days, when the fetus by science is transitioning into an embryo it should now be considered human and be given the same legal rights as such.
-References
*First image taken from http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/
**Second image taken from http://www.wprc.org/
***Third picture taken from triscal
A four week old Human Embryo
True they spend 95% of their times at this stage asleep, one might assume that at this stage these fetuses are self conscious. But let’s get the idea of being self conscious into perspective. They first and foremost have never been exposed to the ideas of thought coming into consciousness like one would from sleep but assumedly far more slowly, little by little realizing themselves even if very primitively. I suppose one could say the first time these growing fetuses probably only real major jump in self awareness is when they are born. After birth I’d assume the slowly become more and more self aware through growing up.
Embryo 8 weeks after conception
Looking at the development of the human fetus and at what point it turns into an embryo we can perhaps develop an understanding of how to define a human through both scientific and ethical ways.
A brief outline of the development within the fetus, taken from Wikipedia:
“Week 1-4 After conception, the embryo will begin to "search" for a place to attach to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium and implants itself there, the connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord.
Week 5-6 Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. The brain begins to develop, showing brain wave activity at about the 6th week. The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Stubs begin to be visible where arms and legs will grow later. All of the main organs begin to grow. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass.
Week 7-8 The embryo's blood type becomes apparent. Embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Most organs have developed or have begun developing. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.”
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo#Growth_of_the_Human_Embryo
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A diagram of the stages of development of a fetus/embryo
Perhaps the next major changes in these embryos that are relevant to this discussion occur is when they start gaining consciousness within the womb. They start breathing in the liquid they are immersed in and start moving of their own free will. There are cases when a habit the embryo develops within the womb (such as sucking on the thumbs) carries on to when they are born. This is very strong evidence to support that at this point these beings are conscious and self aware even if primitively.
At this point I believe it is most definitely wrong to commit abortion no more than to give birth to the child then kill it. I suppose the question is where do we draw the line? In my opinion its after 40 days, when the fetus by science is transitioning into an embryo it should now be considered human and be given the same legal rights as such.
-References
*First image taken from http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/
**Second image taken from http://www.wprc.org/
***Third picture taken from triscal
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Comment by Ahmed
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I'm curios where everyone is at in regards to all of this. I found some things very interesting, especially that the embryo spends some time conscious inside the womb.
Comment by Cinico
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Most miscarriages also take place before 12 weeks.
Comment by Ahmed
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Well I whole heartedly agree with it, after the 12 weeks the fetus starts looking a lot like a human and that just feels disturbing killing it.
So whats your opinion on it? 12 weeks a fair bet?
Comment by Cinico
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Comment by Ahmed
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I'm suddenly confused...
Comment by Cinico
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Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by Damo
Another thing to take in mind is that human eggs actually have an eggshell. We have all hatched from eggs. This I have seen with my own eyes as I have edited medical research videos. It makes the claim of 'common body organism' very dubious.
Now we get down to issue of when is it a human.
Here there are three common answers:
After birth; at the time of conception; or at some point inbetween. Being a little bit human is like being a little bit pregnant or a littlle bit dead.
If you are looking the truth, which I believe you are, can you accept it if it is disturbing?
Comment by Ahmed
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Well I should elaborate that pro-abortion movements seem to clasify the fetus/embryo as part of their body. The typical slogan 'its my body' is being used quite a bit.
What I'm trying to fathom is at what point can we consider this lump of cells as no longer part of their body, not in the physical sense because in that case as you seem to note it hardly ever is but more in the ethical sense, when this little clump of cells is a human in its own right. At that point they can't say 'its my body' because its another human being within a humanbeing.
I was thinking the exactly the samething that humans cannot be considered bit by bit or a lot in one go which is why I beleve that there is a definate set time for when a fetus can be no longer considered one and instead considered human.
Well the truth is the truth, no use beating around the bush right? I don't understand how it can be disturbing though.
Comment by Luke
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Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by Damo
Conception or birth are clean points but inbetween is somewhat blurred.
If you believe that something becomes human after a period of time. You would have to devise a test of humanity and deal with the results. What test would be chosen and by whom? By what right does one human have to determine what constitues a human? Could the same test be applied to individuals that were previously considered human?
Now lets look at Child Birth being the point of human existance. The US Supreme Court accepted that as an argument in the 1970's. That means nothing inside the mother is human or has any human rights. Very difficult to accept when you see images of pre-birth babies sucking thumbs.
Now consider conception as the beginning of a human life. This means that what you describe as a clump of cells is a human at an early stage. The current status quo of thousands of abortions are now thousands of executions.
Each alternative has its pitfalls but only one can be true.
Comment by Ahmed
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I don't think there should be any tests, it should be based on guidelines. THere are many significant milestones during the developemtn of a uterus/embryo, including the time it first takes consciousness from inside the womb.
The Supreme Court shouldn't play a part in deciding this, this is about science and ethics. Judges are not scientists nor are they ethicists.
Comment by Brenton
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Comment by Ahmed
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and women will have to account for what happened to their babies after then, miscarriage etc..
Comment by Damo
40 days is your milestone based upon your parameters. Not every scientific authority agrees with it. If doctors and professors cannot agree, what is 40 days but a subjective measurement? This was the same mode of thinking that the Eugenics societies had in the early twentieth centuary.
Judges may be scientists but neither are ethicists. I am yet to work out what an ethicist is other than someone who completes a couse in ethics. It begs the question: whose ethics?
What is at stake is a human life. What if new information discovers that you were wrong by 5 days. Is it just tough for those caught in the five day mistake? Does it make it all better to say that our best scientists meant well at the time? Can you give back that life after taking it? I don't think so.
Comment by Ahmed
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Granted, even a bunch of professionals who do come to said conclusion may turn out to be wrong (WTF!? pluto is a planet!), but its better there is a general consensus than not. We have to guide ourselves to a degree, even if it means we take assumptions. IF we ban it all together all that happens is underground abortions increase which is definately not good.
Its true that is whats at stake, an dwe have to be absoloutely sure about what we are doing, and in an ideal world ther would be no abortions. Everyone would find a soul mate, get married and have lots of children. But we don't live in that ideal world, it makes things complicated and we often find ourselves questioning our own ideas. THey made a massive mistake in the supreme court implying babies are not human until born, we don't want that mistake being made again. But we can make another mistake, perhaps you are right and it is before 40 days. I think it is 40 days exactly because thats what research shows. So just to be safe we can make it 35 days before abortion is legal. It is better to be safe than sorry but in the end we cannot be 100% safe. Its impossible becase we don't know when life enters our developing bodies within the womb.
Our ethics aren't perfect, we can say that we each are murderars from the sperm that goes and dies, never to be fertilized but we can also somehow come to the conclusion embryos are not human until born. We as humans are fundamentally flawed in the way we view the world, but thats our problem and we have to work out a way to solve it.
Perhaps a better long term plan would be to stop these unwatned pregnancies, but till then we have to do something, anything to keep abortions within the realm of atleast SOME humanity.
Comment by Luke
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Comment by Luke
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Comment by Ahmed
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They also learn to breathe consciously from within the womb.
Are we to say just becase they aren't born they aren't human because they simply haven't left the womb?
Comment by Damo
In looking for a scientific definition we let social issues cloud the answer.
Every altenative creates its own social disruption. That is why I say that the truth is often hard to accept. Looking to the Law to do the right thing is hap hazzard because each country has different laws and precedents. USA uses the "has not drawn first breath" ruling; Ireland has abortion banned in the constitution; Australia has laws for each state. Logically all cannot be right.
Looking for the magic middle road may work in 'Monkey Magic' but when it comes to human rights there is no where to compromise. There is no state between dead and alive. You cannot give back a life once you have taken it, and if human life is of any value, you cannot afford to be wrong.
Are we a terrible society that has created an industry that kills humans with an unprecedented efficiancy? Or are we innocently removing prenatal tumors.
Comment by Luke
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Comment by Ahmed
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We can't remember it cos we were just literally born.
@Luke, so are you saying even if a baby is born prematurely we should have the right to kill it? I mean they should live out a full 9 months insdie the womb before being born, but what if they are born after 8 months for instance? At that point they have a high chance of survival because htye have developed many if not all the organs fully enough to function outside the womb while inside the womb. They have gained consciousness inside the womb, literal consciousness. They have leared to breathe on their own too, they might have even started developing habits by then. They are as much human inside the body at that point as they are outside.
So just becase they aren't born, as in taken out of the womb makes them any les human? Sure its conveniant to say that they are not human until born, but knowing this through the technology we have, it is fairly obvious that these embryos are conscious within the womb, living, breathing (in a literal sense) human beings. They have fully operating beating hearts, developing lungs and everything else that makes you or me human. Do we say its not human because it hasn't been removed from the womb yet? Isn't that just looking for a conveniant excuse now?
Comment by Little Angry Doll
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After 12 weeks, and up until 16 weeks, abortions can be conducted, without any serious counselling being provided. After 16 weeks, most abortionists provide the mother with extensive counselling and stress that they are unwilling to perform the procedure. In extenuated circumstances they will proceed. I could be wrong, but I understand that abortions can be performed in Australia up until 20 weeks. I also understand that this is a very rear occurrence, usually when there is either a problem with the foetus or a mental/health risk for the mother.
This has been a wonderful post and I hope I’m not being a “downer” here.
I got fantastic early response from my boys in utero by playing them They Might Be Giants. When they needed settling in the early days, the boys would settle quicker with TMBG on.
Comment by Luke
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I just think that you can't have it both ways... if anti-abortionists want to define a lifespan as having started before the actual birth than they should be out there campaigning for our definitions of age to be changed.
I don't really care to be honest, I just wanted to be part of the talkbalk LOL.
Comment by Damo
You are correct about the 'drawing breath ruling'. With todays ultrasounds showing all sorts of human behaviour before birth it makes the decision seem innane. My position is that conception must be the point at when a human is created. I am yet to see any evidence to rebuff this from a scientific viewpoint. To argue that 'some are more human than others' is an unprovable statement. A switch is not flicked and you are human, Nor at any stage can you be half human half tumor.
Certainly the debate will be influence by social and ideological positions. Calling upon scientist to give an opinion is valid but is they are also human and have human flaws and agendas. There may be a case of selective evidence to achieve a financial or politically favourable outcome.
Like minded people usualy agree with like minded so I can understand people of different camps. But what is the use in finding the truth if it cannot be used?
Comment by Ahmed
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Truth be told I'm leaning back to my last idea of when the heart starts beating hwich is apparently 3 months after conception. I thought it was 40 days but that is when the heart begins developing itself.
It's like building a house I suppose, it is not a house until all the walls stand up and the roof is put on, then it's a house, before that its a construction site.